Indoor rowing

[rifnraf]

Could anyone suggest a chatroom or a newsgroup regarding the issues of
indoor rowing and the machines used?? I am very serious in the use of my
Infiniti R900APM and would like to find like individuals. Thanks for your
attention..........

Mark

[carolinetu]

Post by rifnraf
Could anyone suggest a chatroom or a newsgroup regarding the issues of
indoor rowing and the machines used??  I am very serious in the use of my
Infiniti R900APM and would like to find like individuals. Thanks for your
attention..........
Mark

I've never heard of this machine, and a Google search didn't find it.
However the Infiniti R100 did pop up, and looks very similar to the
Concept II apart from the price (much cheaper). There was a very
favourable review of it too. Has anyone out there got one?

Caroline

[ancho]

From the pictures, it seems a copy from the C2, but with magnetic
resistance.
If you're using it, what's your opinion?
How many hours do you use it, and how does it feel? Is it really less
noisy?
What are the monitor's features?

http://rowing-machine-reviews.elliptical-trainer-reviews.com/rowing-machine-reviews.htm
Now this review seems major BS to me.
The first 2 points are realy an offense to the extremely proven, heavy
duty C2 and their outstanding customer service.

The only "real" advantages I see are the backlit monitor ,the
adjustable ventilation (if it works), and if it really is less noisy.

[p***@hotmail.com]

Post by ancho
From the pictures, it seems a copy from the C2, but with magnetic
resistance.
If you're using it, what's your opinion?
How many hours do you use it, and how does it feel? Is it really less
noisy?
What are the monitor's features?
http://rowing-machine-reviews.elliptical-trainer-reviews.com/rowing-m...
Now this review seems major BS to me.
The first 2 points are realy an offense to the extremely proven, heavy
duty C2 and their outstanding customer service.
The only "real" advantages I see are the backlit monitor ,the
adjustable ventilation (if it works), and if it really is less noisy.

Wow! Read the review carefully and it's got several contradictions in
it. The blatant attempt to try to slam the C2 for something that
costs about twice as much is a bit disengenuous.
C2 has a weight limit far about 250lbs, and has as small a resistance
change unit as one could want. Clearly these guys are stuck in
"Stepper" mode, and not quite familiar with the more isokinetic nature
of rowing, i.e. if you want more resistance, drive harder.

They were smart enough to set up a web page, but the content was
lacking in substance.

Plus, there's a great way to redirect the airflow on the C2 to cool
the athlete, The "CBreeze"-tm (http://www.ps-sport.net), and it
doesn't double the price of your setup. (Though I would be happy to
consider a price increase if it makes anyone feel better.) LOL

- Paul Smith

[Richard Packer]

Post by p***@hotmail.com
and has as small a resistance
change unit as one could want.

<SpinalTap>
These go up to 11.
</SpinalTap>

;-)

[rifnraf]

Where to start? I have been using a Concept 2D at the gym every other day,
and decided on buying one for home use. I was at a level of full 10
resistance on the Concept, and was managing 2000 metres in about 20
minutes....... Went looking for a Concept and just didn't want to part with
the 2Grand or so it was going to cost. Spent a lot of time looking through
Ebay and there were so good bargains but the gain was sorely depleted by the
shipping...........
Spent hours on different sites reading about rowers and when arriving at
several British sites, found a magnificent writeup concerning the Infiniti
900. It was compared directly with the Concept and was touted as being even
bettter when used in a Semi-commercial application such as heavy home use.
Three weeks later, after hours of reading the many sites offering exercise
equipment I decided that saving $600-$700 dollars and buying the Infiniti
would be my direction.......... All I can say is WOW. The Infinti is as much
a contender as the Concept.......... In fact as a machine likely to see an
hours usage daily, I would say the Infinity has many advantages over the
Concept. The ability to change levels during a heart-rate monitored program
row has become my principal usage. With the heart rate pickup on my chest, I
can set the program to allow me to hold my HR at a 3/4 rate and still have a
varied row.............
There is a lot more to be said about this machine, but I'm still wondering
if this is the place to do it in????? My initial concern was not to kidnap
your subject of actual rowing by boring you with an exercise
machine.......... If I were so endowed with the means and the availability
to actually rowing or skulling............ I would. My age of 54 and the
lack of time has led me to body-builder and exercise. Rowing, on a machine,
has become an excellent source of cardio workout that works very well with
my weight training.
Thanks for your input............

Post by ancho
From the pictures, it seems a copy from the C2, but with magnetic
resistance.
If you're using it, what's your opinion?
How many hours do you use it, and how does it feel? Is it really less
noisy?
What are the monitor's features?
http://rowing-machine-reviews.elliptical-trainer-reviews.com/rowing-m...
Now this review seems major BS to me.
The first 2 points are realy an offense to the extremely proven, heavy
duty C2 and their outstanding customer service.
The only "real" advantages I see are the backlit monitor ,the
adjustable ventilation (if it works), and if it really is less noisy.

Wow! Read the review carefully and it's got several contradictions in
it. The blatant attempt to try to slam the C2 for something that
costs about twice as much is a bit disengenuous.
C2 has a weight limit far about 250lbs, and has as small a resistance
change unit as one could want. Clearly these guys are stuck in
"Stepper" mode, and not quite familiar with the more isokinetic nature
of rowing, i.e. if you want more resistance, drive harder.

They were smart enough to set up a web page, but the content was
lacking in substance.

Plus, there's a great way to redirect the airflow on the C2 to cool
the athlete, The "CBreeze"-tm (http://www.ps-sport.net), and it
doesn't double the price of your setup. (Though I would be happy to
consider a price increase if it makes anyone feel better.) LOL

- Paul Smith

[Alistair Potts]

The R900 that you mean is usually branded Lifecore. They're the same people
as Infiniti as far as I can tell. The reviews on amazon are fairly
positive, for what it's worth:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000IY84II/ref=cm_rdp_product

The Infiniti 100 mentioned earlier looks a more interesting machine. I think
most people here with experience of real rowing would recommend as a
starting point: if it's got a wheel at the end that you spin around (water,
air or magnetic resistance) you'll get a more satisfying workout than the
belt-resistance that this sort of machine involves.

Good luck building your muscles.

[rifnraf]

The comparison of the Infinti R100APM and the Concept 2 Rower has been done
by others........... this was one of the better:
http://rowing-machine-reviews.elliptical-trainer-reviews.com/rowing-machine-reviews.htm

[J Flory]

Post by rifnraf
The comparison of the Infinti R100APM and the Concept 2 Rower has been done
by others...........  this was one of the better:http://rowing-machine-reviews.elliptical-trainer-reviews.com/rowing-m...

It certainly reads like a biased "review". As stated before the first
two points are completely bogus. Like many people on here, I use the
erg for about 4 months every year while the river is frozen or
dangerously cold, plus sporadically during the season when weather is
too nasty. And have been doing so for years. I switched from a C2 C
to a D simply because the D was quieter. I live in a condo and don't
want angry neighbors at 5am. I've asked the people on both sides and
they don't even hear it. I listen to iPod or TV on earphones (and
would do that anyway) so close-up noises of the machine are
irrelevant.

I think the display on the C died after a few years and I replaced it;
never any problems with the D.

As for resistance levels, never found any need to vary the resistance
level at all. Output can be varied very easily either by varying
stroke rate and/or effort at a given stroke rate (easily seen on the
watts setting).

Have been doing heart rate training for the past three years. The C2
can display HR on its monitor but a cheap Polar wrist display works
equally well. As for running me through a HR program, that's what my
brain is for and so far at least it works just fine (at least I think
so).

At the gym I sometimes use cross-trainers, and their cardio programs
are supposed to reduce resistance to control your HR. They don't work
very well for me. Just this morning one set at 129 BPM was letting me
up to well over 135 and kept telling me to ease off - it couldn't
reduce effort enough to get my HR down. So you have to use your brain
anyway.

I DO use a butt pad because the C2 seat is not wonderful. But the
real solution would be to take a known comfy rowing shell seat like a
CD or a Dreher and mount it on an erg, not to invent yet another shape
that might or might not work.

[Alexander Lindsay]

Post by rifnraf
Where to start? I have been using a Concept 2D at the gym every other
day, and decided on buying one for home use. I was at a level of full 10
resistance on the Concept, and was managing 2000 metres in about 20
minutes....... Went looking for a Concept and just didn't want to part
with the 2Grand or so it was going to cost. Spent a lot of time looking
through Ebay and there were so good bargains but the gain was sorely
depleted by the shipping...........
Spent hours on different sites reading about rowers and when arriving at
several British sites, found a magnificent writeup concerning the Infiniti
900. It was compared directly with the Concept and was touted as being
even bettter when used in a Semi-commercial application such as heavy home
use. Three weeks later, after hours of reading the many sites offering
exercise equipment I decided that saving $600-$700 dollars and buying the
Infiniti would be my direction.......... All I can say is WOW. The Infinti
is as much a contender as the Concept.......... In fact as a machine
likely to see an hours usage daily, I would say the Infinity has many
advantages over the Concept. The ability to change levels during a
heart-rate monitored program row has become my principal usage. With the
heart rate pickup on my chest, I can set the program to allow me to hold
my HR at a 3/4 rate and still have a varied row.............
There is a lot more to be said about this machine, but I'm still wondering
if this is the place to do it in????? My initial concern was not to kidnap
your subject of actual rowing by boring you with an exercise
machine.......... If I were so endowed with the means and the availability
to actually rowing or skulling............ I would. My age of 54 and the
lack of time has led me to body-builder and exercise. Rowing, on a
machine, has become an excellent source of cardio workout that works very
well with my weight training.
Thanks for your input............

Thank you for an interesting perspective. I have no reason to doubt
anything you say.

BUT, there is a really huge difference between what you are doing and what
oarsmen do. At your age an oarsmen would expect to do 2000 meters in well
under 7 minutes, ie about 3 times as fast as you, and therefore probably
working over 10 times as hard. There may be characteristics of the Infiniti
machine which become more apparent when being used at higher levels of
energy output.

Does anybody know?

Alexander Lindsay

[d***@aea.be]

Post by Alexander Lindsay
At your age an oarsmen would expect to do 2000 meters in well
under 7 minutes,

Thanks, you just spoiled my day

Dave H (58)

[Alexander Lindsay]

Post by Alexander Lindsay
At your age an oarsmen would expect to do 2000 meters in well
under 7 minutes,

Thanks, you just spoiled my day

Dave H (58)

Sorry about that. A bit of an exaggeration perhaps. But see

http://www.concept2.co.uk/birc/results_detail_2007.php?race=A7
and
http://www.crash-b.org/cb2007/results/event11-hwt.html

Alexander Lindsay (71 and now nearer 8 minutes)

[Andrew]

A good start would be to look at the technique guides on the concept 2
websites. You should be able to to around 5000 metres in 20 minutes
(this is relatively slow) so your best improvement will come from
improving technique. There are also lots of good discussion groups
here too on training.

In terms of resistance, if you find the resistance of the concept 2
too low at 10 then you are probably doing something very wrong! If
you watch a rower vs non rower in the Gym, the non rowers can have a
rate of up to 40 strokes per minute at a setting of 10, but the handle
only moves about 1 - 2 feet whilst their bodies pivot in all
directions around the handle. A rower will have a rate of about 20
moving the handle a much longer distance by getting the legs, body,
and arms in the correct order. Whilst it may look slow / easy, the
rower will be going a lot faster and putting significantly more power
down.

Check your split time - a 5000m in 20 minutes corresponds to a split
of 2.00 minutes (time for 500 metres). This should be relatively
comfortable for long distances. If you have the drag too high (set
the factor to around 130 on the C2s - these have infinitely variable
adjustment by the way, not 10 steps!), then you may injure your back.
On a C2, this drag corresponds to about 5 but may very between
machines - try the one in your gym (there is a drag factor option on
the menu to check) to get a feel. If it feels to easy at 130 ish,
then don't put it up, but change your technique. You simply cannot
find a C2 too easy!

In my experience, the C2s are leagues above everything else which is
why 99.99999% of rowers and rowing clubs own them. Their relatively
high cost is well worth it!

Andrew

[p***@hotmail.com]

Post by Andrew
A good start would be to look at the technique guides on the concept 2
websites.  You should be able to to around 5000 metres in 20 minutes
(this is relatively slow) so your best improvement will come from
improving technique.  There are also lots of good discussion groups
here too on training.
In terms of resistance, if you find the resistance of the concept 2
too low at 10 then you are probably doing something very wrong!  If
you watch a rower vs non rower in the Gym, the non rowers can have a
rate of up to 40 strokes per minute at a setting of 10, but the handle
only moves about 1 - 2 feet whilst their bodies pivot in all
directions around the handle.  A rower will have a rate of about 20
moving the handle a much longer distance by getting the legs, body,
and arms in the correct order.  Whilst it may look slow / easy, the
rower will be going a lot faster and putting significantly more power
down.
Check your split time - a 5000m in 20 minutes corresponds to a split
of 2.00 minutes (time for 500 metres).  This should be relatively
comfortable for long distances.   If you have the drag too high (set
the factor to around 130 on the C2s - these have infinitely variable
adjustment by the way, not 10 steps!), then you may injure your back.
On a C2, this drag corresponds to about 5 but may very between
machines - try the one in your gym (there is a drag factor option on
the menu to check) to get a feel.  If it feels to easy at 130 ish,
then don't put it up, but change your technique.  You simply cannot
find a C2 too easy!
In my experience, the C2s are leagues above everything else which is
why 99.99999% of rowers and rowing clubs own them.  Their relatively
high cost is well worth it!
Andrew

Hold on there!  You are saying that, if there are 10 million rowers &
clubs, then only 1 person doesn't use a C-II?  In which case there are
no rowers using Rowperfect, or Waterrower.  And what about those who
never use ergs at all?
Sure, C-II is the "industry standard" in the same way the the PC is the
industry standard in office computing & Windows is the industry standard
operating system (heaven help us!).  But there are other ways to do
things too, & quite a lot of rowers (of whom there are nothing like 10
million in total, AFAIK) use other ergs.
Anyway, ergs are a very poor alternative indeed to rowing & sculling.
Be that as it may, I'm sure our friend needs to review his technique.
Study the many films of good rowers on ergs (including on the C-II
website IIRC).  Any very average rower will knock spots off non-rowers,
purely due to the abysmal technique & lack of coordination of the
non-rowers.  First thing to remember is that rowing is not about moving
the body all over the place - less is more.  The rower's sole purpose is
to move that handle a long way & often, all under sustained, smooth
load,  To do this you do, of course, need to move the body, legs & arms.
  But only in the simplest & smoothest ways possible.  No point in
moving anything that doesn't move the well-loaded handle.
Cheers -
Carl
--
Carl Douglas Racing Shells        -
     Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
Write:   Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
URLs:  www.carldouglas.co.uk(boats) &www.aerowing.co.uk(riggers)- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

He probably did put a fe too many "9"'s in his estimate of C2
popularity among rowers, but we can say that it's likely to be >99%.
Certainly there are those out there using hydraulic cylinder rowers,
perhaps more than both WaterRower and RowPerfect (if RP ever ships a
production machine again?) combined, but that doesn't make them any
good.

As for the rest of your summary, WELL SAID! (A simple motion
complicated by all means of suggestions, usually attributed to "Well
known" coaches, interpretted and repeated wrongly by their faithful
charges.)

- Paul Smith

[Carl Douglas]

Post by Andrew
A good start would be to look at the technique guides on the concept 2
websites. You should be able to to around 5000 metres in 20 minutes
(this is relatively slow) so your best improvement will come from
improving technique. There are also lots of good discussion groups
here too on training.
In terms of resistance, if you find the resistance of the concept 2
too low at 10 then you are probably doing something very wrong! If
you watch a rower vs non rower in the Gym, the non rowers can have a
rate of up to 40 strokes per minute at a setting of 10, but the handle
only moves about 1 - 2 feet whilst their bodies pivot in all
directions around the handle. A rower will have a rate of about 20
moving the handle a much longer distance by getting the legs, body,
and arms in the correct order. Whilst it may look slow / easy, the
rower will be going a lot faster and putting significantly more power
down.
Check your split time - a 5000m in 20 minutes corresponds to a split
of 2.00 minutes (time for 500 metres). This should be relatively
comfortable for long distances. If you have the drag too high (set
the factor to around 130 on the C2s - these have infinitely variable
adjustment by the way, not 10 steps!), then you may injure your back.
On a C2, this drag corresponds to about 5 but may very between
machines - try the one in your gym (there is a drag factor option on
the menu to check) to get a feel. If it feels to easy at 130 ish,
then don't put it up, but change your technique. You simply cannot
find a C2 too easy!
In my experience, the C2s are leagues above everything else which is
why 99.99999% of rowers and rowing clubs own them. Their relatively
high cost is well worth it!
Andrew

Hold on there! You are saying that, if there are 10 million rowers &
clubs, then only 1 person doesn't use a C-II? In which case there are
no rowers using Rowperfect, or Waterrower. And what about those who
never use ergs at all?

Sure, C-II is the "industry standard" in the same way the the PC is the
industry standard in office computing & Windows is the industry standard
operating system (heaven help us!). But there are other ways to do
things too, & quite a lot of rowers (of whom there are nothing like 10
million in total, AFAIK) use other ergs.

Anyway, ergs are a very poor alternative indeed to rowing & sculling.

Be that as it may, I'm sure our friend needs to review his technique.
Study the many films of good rowers on ergs (including on the C-II
website IIRC). Any very average rower will knock spots off non-rowers,
purely due to the abysmal technique & lack of coordination of the
non-rowers. First thing to remember is that rowing is not about moving
the body all over the place - less is more. The rower's sole purpose is
to move that handle a long way & often, all under sustained, smooth
load, To do this you do, of course, need to move the body, legs & arms.
But only in the simplest & smoothest ways possible. No point in
moving anything that doesn't move the well-loaded handle.

Cheers -
Carl

[Andrew]

Post by Andrew
In my experience, the C2s are leagues above everything else which is
why 99.99999% of rowers and rowing clubs own them.  Their relatively
high cost is well worth it!

The "9" key on my keyboard sometimes sticks...

There are other good machines out there (I tried a water rower which I
liked and the rowperfect obviously features) but the C2 must be in the
high 90%s. I feel there is a role for less costly machines (£1000 is
a lot for anyone, although I feel worth it) and if they offer the
basic functionality to be able to row "properly" and are well made,
then good. However there are some very poorly thought out machines
that get you into all sorts of strange positions which must be doing
more harm than good. The Infiniti may be a well thought out machine
(copying C2 is a starting point), but I agree that the review
certainly seem biased and made no sense when describing the C2.

Cheers,

Andrew

[Sarah F]

Post by p***@hotmail.com
Wow! Read the review carefully and it's got several contradictions in
it. The blatant attempt to try to slam the C2 for something that
costs about twice as much is a bit disengenuous.
C2 has a weight limit far about 250lbs, and has as small a resistance
change unit as one could want. Clearly these guys are stuck in
"Stepper" mode, and not quite familiar with the more isokinetic nature
of rowing, i.e. if you want more resistance, drive harder.
They were smart enough to set up a web page, but the content was
lacking in substance.
Plus, there's a great way to redirect the airflow on the C2 to cool
the athlete, The "CBreeze"-tm (http://www.ps-sport.net), and it
doesn't double the price of your setup. (Though I would be happy to
consider a price increase if it makes anyone feel better.) LOL
- Paul Smith

Agreed. But also:

Quote:
"This is a big deal and its amazing no one else has thought of it. The
R100 footplates are not angled out so your toes don't point straight
up. This position externally rotates your greater tuberosity at the
hip and opens your legs to accomodate you body in the full forward row
position --> a well thought out design."

Is it just me, or is this not just an excuse for the user to have
short hamstrings and a massive gut?

Sarah

[p***@hotmail.com]

Post by Sarah F

Wow!  Read the review carefully and it's got several contradictions in
it.  The blatant attempt to try to slam the C2 for something that
costs about twice as much is a bit disengenuous.
C2 has a weight limit far about 250lbs, and has as small a resistance
change unit as one could want.  Clearly these guys are stuck in
"Stepper" mode, and not quite familiar with the more isokinetic nature
of rowing, i.e. if you want more resistance, drive harder.
They were smart enough to set up a web page, but the content was
lacking in substance.
Plus, there's a great way to redirect the airflow on the C2 to cool
the athlete, The "CBreeze"-tm (http://www.ps-sport.net), and it
doesn't double the price of your setup. (Though I would be happy to
consider a price increase if it makes anyone feel better.) LOL
- Paul Smith

"This is a big deal and its amazing no one else has thought of it. The
R100 footplates are not angled out so your toes don't point straight
up. This position externally rotates your greater tuberosity at the
hip and opens your legs to accomodate you body in the full forward row
position --> a well thought out design."
Is it just me, or is this not just an excuse for the user to have
short hamstrings and a massive gut?
Sarah- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

Well, aside from the passage making absolutely no sense, unless they
meant ot leave out the "not".

It is customary for the Clogs or Shoes to have a bit of outward angle,
but this could be due to no more than the bottom of hte boat being
narrow, though I've seen it specified in rigging diagrams as being
something desireable.

It could just be you, because there is no excuse other than laziness
for such things, at least that's the one I use. [;o)

Perhaps you meant it was an "accomodation" for those with short
hammies and a massive gut? Though the Biglin brothers didn't appear
to be suffering from such things and rowed well between their knees.

- Paul Smith

[Charles Carroll]

Post by Sarah F
Is it just me, or is this not just an excuse for the user to have
short hamstrings and a massive gut?

Not to forget those of us who prefer to keep the knees together at the
catch!

[rifnraf]

All good points to consider............ Thanks to all for your input.
I do think, though, that I need make a point regarding my use of the
rower...... My workout is based on body conditioning which may or may not
emulate the movements of a rower. I realized from the get-go, that this was
a news-group based on the sport of rowing(sculling) and my input would not
be inline with the general majority. I'm still quite impressed with the
response from you as a group.
Now..... as far as the quality concerns mentioned when comparing the Concept
and the Infinti, I manage to work out well with both on a daily level. Since
acquiring the Infiniti, I've grown to enjoy the benefits of a changing level
of resistance. This may not compare to the real rowing experience, but I'll
put my level of conditioning up against anyone on this forum. Rowing, on
this machine, has allowed me a way of conditioning at home that was only
available to me on very expensive gym equipment.
I've noticed impressive gains on widening my lats as well as increased
definition in my arms. My resting heartrate has gone from the mid 70s to
the higher 50s. That alone would make the whole rowing machine experience
worthwhile.....
Up and until I can find a newsgroup or site that is dedicated to the use of
rowing machines, I'll hang out here. I'll try not to put my foot in my mouth
in this environment of competitive rowers............... thanks again.
"Charles Carroll" <***@comcast.net> wrote in message news:rZKdnSE8F-***@comcast.com...

[mruscoe]

Post by rifnraf
Up and until I can find a newsgroup or site that is dedicated to the use of
rowing machines, I'll hang out here. I'll try not to put my foot in my mouth
in this environment of competitive rowers............... thanks again.

You might want to try the discussion forums on the US and UK Concept 2
websites...

http://www.c2forum.com/
http://www.concept2.co.uk/forum/

[rifnraf]

Thanks I will try these sites................ I'll just not mention my
choice of machine.

Post by mruscoe

Post by rifnraf
Up and until I can find a newsgroup or site that is dedicated to the use
of rowing machines, I'll hang out here. I'll try not to put my foot in my
mouth in this environment of competitive rowers............... thanks
again.

You might want to try the discussion forums on the US and UK Concept 2
websites...
http://www.c2forum.com/
http://www.concept2.co.uk/forum/