Thumbs on the end

[sully]

This is what I teach for sculling and always have.

I have had brand new scullers argue with me that it feels better without it, feels more comfortable without keeping thumbs at end.

I have a list of arguments in favor, some I buy into, some I don't.

1. thumb keeps button pressed against lock, keeps you from using friction from the fingers to keep handles on path.

2. If you hold your hands out flat in front of you, the thumb naturally sticks out to the side, not under the hand. The thumb on the end leads to a more relaxed hand.

3. any grip I can think of except for a sweep oar or sledge hammer/axe has the thumb forward. My hand tools, electric tools, all are gripped with thumb forward of the hand, informing me that this is a natural grip.

I want to question this. Arguments against? Arguments for, that I don't know of? Arguments of "it doesn't matter"?

[a***@gmail.com]

Post by sully
This is what I teach for sculling and always have.
I have had brand new scullers argue with me that it feels better without it, feels more comfortable without keeping thumbs at end.
I have a list of arguments in favor, some I buy into, some I don't.
1. thumb keeps button pressed against lock, keeps you from using friction from the fingers to keep handles on path.
2. If you hold your hands out flat in front of you, the thumb naturally sticks out to the side, not under the hand. The thumb on the end leads to a more relaxed hand.
3. any grip I can think of except for a sweep oar or sledge hammer/axe has the thumb forward. My hand tools, electric tools, all are gripped with thumb forward of the hand, informing me that this is a natural grip.
I want to question this. Arguments against? Arguments for, that I don't know of? Arguments of "it doesn't matter"?

Sully

The one I have heard often is 'keeps button pressed against gate' - but I didn't think that stood up to analysis - as the only thing that your thumb can use for leverage is your hand, Newtons 3rd law suggests that any inward pressure is matched by an outward force from your palm and fingers. Having said that I just tried gripping a ruler as if a scull, and it was easy to use my thumb to press outwards! That Newton bloke wasn't as clever as he made out!

In practice I don't think I consciously press with my thumbs every stroke, so it is probably just constraining my hand to hold the end of the scull and not slip out-board. That would suggest that if you have Croker style grips with moulded finger grooves, it's moderately redundant, but for smooth grips it might play a role?

A minor argument you haven't mentioned; it means that you require a thumb's depth less separation at the blade crossover.

Andy

[t***@googlemail.com]

In sweep I've seen people (even quite experienced athletes) row without little fingers over the ends of the handles, and in sculling I've seen novices without their thumbs on the ends of the handles. What often happens?

Their hands slip down the handles so that a few centimeters stick out of the end and their grip is closer to the gate than if they had thumb/little finger over the end. This dramatically changes the gearing on the blades and makes their lives harder!

[w***@gmail.com]

Post by sully
This is what I teach for sculling and always have.
I have had brand new scullers argue with me that it feels better without it, feels more comfortable without keeping thumbs at end.
I have a list of arguments in favor, some I buy into, some I don't.
1. thumb keeps button pressed against lock, keeps you from using friction from the fingers to keep handles on path.
2. If you hold your hands out flat in front of you, the thumb naturally sticks out to the side, not under the hand. The thumb on the end leads to a more relaxed hand.
3. any grip I can think of except for a sweep oar or sledge hammer/axe has the thumb forward. My hand tools, electric tools, all are gripped with thumb forward of the hand, informing me that this is a natural grip.
I want to question this. Arguments against? Arguments for, that I don't know of? Arguments of "it doesn't matter"?

You can have your hands closer together and take up less space (vertically) if your thumbs are on the ends - wrapped around the handle, they take up space that could be used for blade/water clearance.
I don't "teach" the thumbs for outward pressure stuff - Dick McClure, who taught me how to scull, used to say that the thumb is on the end with about as much force as you'd use to rub the tip of a sharp pencil. What seems to work for me is people learning to follow (guide the handle around) the arc described by the handle, rather than pushing outwards.

[LakeGator]

Post by sully
This is what I teach for sculling and always have.
I have had brand new scullers argue with me that it feels better without it, feels more comfortable without keeping thumbs at end.
I have a list of arguments in favor, some I buy into, some I don't.
1. thumb keeps button pressed against lock, keeps you from using friction from the fingers to keep handles on path.
2. If you hold your hands out flat in front of you, the thumb naturally sticks out to the side, not under the hand. The thumb on the end leads to a more relaxed hand.
3. any grip I can think of except for a sweep oar or sledge hammer/axe has the thumb forward. My hand tools, electric tools, all are gripped with thumb forward of the hand, informing me that this is a natural grip.
I want to question this. Arguments against? Arguments for, that I don't know of? Arguments of "it doesn't matter"?

It doesn't seem that placing the thumb at the end of the grip provides any mechanical advantage, as other folks have noted.

One of the local sculling coaches tells his scullers that having the thumb there helps them remember to keep their hands at the extreme end of the oar to help provide the most leverage of the force they apply.

Another minor reason for having the thumb off to the side is to reduce the tendency to squeeze the handle too tightly which seems to be something that most people want to do when first sculling.

[sully]

Post by LakeGator

Post by sully
This is what I teach for sculling and always have.
I have had brand new scullers argue with me that it feels better without it, feels more comfortable without keeping thumbs at end.
I have a list of arguments in favor, some I buy into, some I don't.
1. thumb keeps button pressed against lock, keeps you from using friction from the fingers to keep handles on path.
2. If you hold your hands out flat in front of you, the thumb naturally sticks out to the side, not under the hand. The thumb on the end leads to a more relaxed hand.
3. any grip I can think of except for a sweep oar or sledge hammer/axe has the thumb forward. My hand tools, electric tools, all are gripped with thumb forward of the hand, informing me that this is a natural grip.
I want to question this. Arguments against? Arguments for, that I don't know of? Arguments of "it doesn't matter"?

It doesn't seem that placing the thumb at the end of the grip provides any mechanical advantage, as other folks have noted.
One of the local sculling coaches tells his scullers that having the thumb there helps them remember to keep their hands at the extreme end of the oar to help provide the most leverage of the force they apply.
Another minor reason for having the thumb off to the side is to reduce the tendency to squeeze the handle too tightly which seems to be something that most people want to do when first sculling.

The replies you've all submitted are consistent with what I teach. I agree 100% that the thumb is not necessary to press the button against the gate, and also that it helps keep hands from climbing away from the ends of the sculls.

I do think it helps keep the hands more relaxed, especially on the recovery phase of the stroke.

But it bothers me a bit that we don't need a thumb on the end of the sweep oar, and the feather hand can stay relaxed on recovery with thumb under.

I haven't had a student challenge me on this, and I'd hate to rely on 'well sculling is a little different than sweep' response that we coaches will say.

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by sully

Post by LakeGator

Post by sully
This is what I teach for sculling and always have.
I have had brand new scullers argue with me that it feels better without it, feels more comfortable without keeping thumbs at end.
I have a list of arguments in favor, some I buy into, some I don't.
1. thumb keeps button pressed against lock, keeps you from using friction from the fingers to keep handles on path.
2. If you hold your hands out flat in front of you, the thumb naturally sticks out to the side, not under the hand. The thumb on the end leads to a more relaxed hand.
3. any grip I can think of except for a sweep oar or sledge hammer/axe has the thumb forward. My hand tools, electric tools, all are gripped with thumb forward of the hand, informing me that this is a natural grip.
I want to question this. Arguments against? Arguments for, that I don't know of? Arguments of "it doesn't matter"?

It doesn't seem that placing the thumb at the end of the grip provides any mechanical advantage, as other folks have noted.
One of the local sculling coaches tells his scullers that having the thumb there helps them remember to keep their hands at the extreme end of the oar to help provide the most leverage of the force they apply.
Another minor reason for having the thumb off to the side is to reduce the tendency to squeeze the handle too tightly which seems to be something that most people want to do when first sculling.

The replies you've all submitted are consistent with what I teach. I agree 100% that the thumb is not necessary to press the button against the gate, and also that it helps keep hands from climbing away from the ends of the sculls.
I do think it helps keep the hands more relaxed, especially on the recovery phase of the stroke.
But it bothers me a bit that we don't need a thumb on the end of the sweep oar, and the feather hand can stay relaxed on recovery with thumb under.
I haven't had a student challenge me on this, and I'd hate to rely on 'well sculling is a little different than sweep' response that we coaches will say.

For me, having the thumb more or less on the end of the grip makes it easier to feather/square by "twiddling" the thumb and index finger. Having the thumb underneath I think would make you more likely to feather by dropping the whole wrist.

Since I moved from 100% sweep to 90% sculling, I altered, without realising it, my feathering in the sweep boat such that I use the thumb of the outside hand to feather the sweep oar, not the inside hand.

[w***@gmail.com]

Post by sully

Post by LakeGator

Post by sully
This is what I teach for sculling and always have.
I have had brand new scullers argue with me that it feels better without it, feels more comfortable without keeping thumbs at end.
I have a list of arguments in favor, some I buy into, some I don't.
1. thumb keeps button pressed against lock, keeps you from using friction from the fingers to keep handles on path.
2. If you hold your hands out flat in front of you, the thumb naturally sticks out to the side, not under the hand. The thumb on the end leads to a more relaxed hand.
3. any grip I can think of except for a sweep oar or sledge hammer/axe has the thumb forward. My hand tools, electric tools, all are gripped with thumb forward of the hand, informing me that this is a natural grip.
I want to question this. Arguments against? Arguments for, that I don't know of? Arguments of "it doesn't matter"?

It doesn't seem that placing the thumb at the end of the grip provides any mechanical advantage, as other folks have noted.
One of the local sculling coaches tells his scullers that having the thumb there helps them remember to keep their hands at the extreme end of the oar to help provide the most leverage of the force they apply.
Another minor reason for having the thumb off to the side is to reduce the tendency to squeeze the handle too tightly which seems to be something that most people want to do when first sculling.

The replies you've all submitted are consistent with what I teach. I agree 100% that the thumb is not necessary to press the button against the gate, and also that it helps keep hands from climbing away from the ends of the sculls.
I do think it helps keep the hands more relaxed, especially on the recovery phase of the stroke.
But it bothers me a bit that we don't need a thumb on the end of the sweep oar, and the feather hand can stay relaxed on recovery with thumb under.
I haven't had a student challenge me on this, and I'd hate to rely on 'well sculling is a little different than sweep' response that we coaches will say.

As Magnus has remarked - if you're gripping with the thumb around a sculling handle there MAY be more of a tendency to use more wrist for feathering - again, taking up more vertical space having extended wrists holding the blades feathered rather than extended knuckles. Uses more muscle, too. I suspect that IF you feather with the inside hand in a sweep situation, it's a combination of a little wrist extension, a bit of forearm pronation, and a bit of finger "opening" (extension) to effect the feather.

My coaching on the feather motion comes essentially from Dick McClure (Burnaby Lake sculling coach, 1956 and 1960 Oly silver, m8+, professional mechanical engineer, ret.) and Al Morrow (long time national team coach for Canada)- you START the feathering and squaring motion with your muscles, and let the blade fall the rest of the way to the square or feather - it's done with relatively relaxed grips, so that you don't lose the ability to hold onto the oar half-way through a session.

[James HS]

Have to say for me thumb on the end leads to an easier feather action - the thumb is on right on the end, but on the outer rim - if it is under (as stated) then you are encouraged to motorbike grip and twist with the wrist action, if it is on the end/edge it is more natural for the 'muscle' and also give me a lighter feel, which means I grip less hard and have an overall lighter feel to the feather as I roll the hand back rather than use the wrist.

I feel the contribution of the thumb if I do half slide fast rate rowing (50 SPM with feather) (an exercise to really manipulate the feather and get the hands used to lightly feathering under control) and the thumb muscle really says hello!

So the main thing for me is the thumb being on the end encourages a lighter grip, which is important in so many things.

James

[Rebecca Caroe]

I'm with you James - I was taught the flat wrist sculling feather and had it explained that the thumb counter-twisted to the fingers to start the rotation of the handle [thumb push away, fingers pull up].

Post by James HS
Have to say for me thumb on the end leads to an easier feather action - the thumb is on right on the end, but on the outer rim - if it is under (as stated) then you are encouraged to motorbike grip and twist with the wrist action, if it is on the end/edge it is more natural for the 'muscle' and also give me a lighter feel, which means I grip less hard and have an overall lighter feel to the feather as I roll the hand back rather than use the wrist.

[t***@gmail.com]

This is what I was taught and teach:
The idea is that the thumb on the end supports the articulation of the fingers, (not the wrists) to feather and roll up, as well as to keep the hands near the ends of the handles. Correctly, on the feather, the thumb pushes while the fingers unroll and on the roll up, the fingers squeeze the handle to the square position. Its a lovely, relaxed and nimble motion.

On the drive, the center, or axis, of the handle is under the main knuckle. On the recovery it is under the first bone of the fingers (which is fairly flat) with the wrists only slightly bent, not cranked.

With the thumb under, one has a "baseball bat" grip and the only way one feathers is to crank the wrists. It is an action that often promotes tension clear out to the elbows, which should remain at handle level. A tight grasp puts pressure on the handle from all sides. There is no reason to have any pressure on the bow side of the handles, except a slight push away after feather. It also promotes pulling the blade out, instead of holding it in. In short, keep the elbows level, relaxed grip, minimal, wrist flat.

Here's a video I use. Charlotte explains it far better than I do.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=sculing+grip&FORM=HDRSC3#view=detail&mid=3138DF90BD0A3FC4A2E93138DF90BD0A3FC4A2E9

Post by sully
This is what I teach for sculling and always have.
I have had brand new scullers argue with me that it feels better without it, feels more comfortable without keeping thumbs at end.
I have a list of arguments in favor, some I buy into, some I don't.
1. thumb keeps button pressed against lock, keeps you from using friction from the fingers to keep handles on path.
2. If you hold your hands out flat in front of you, the thumb naturally sticks out to the side, not under the hand. The thumb on the end leads to a more relaxed hand.
3. any grip I can think of except for a sweep oar or sledge hammer/axe has the thumb forward. My hand tools, electric tools, all are gripped with thumb forward of the hand, informing me that this is a natural grip.
I want to question this. Arguments against? Arguments for, that I don't know of? Arguments of "it doesn't matter"?